Holbein Watercolor..Raw Sienna or Yellow Ochre?
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October 28, 2016 at 11:40 pm#994523
janlinpaints
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I went to a vintage store today and found a few lightly used artist watercolor paints. Holbein looks pretty expensive from what I’ve seen online, so I grabbed a few tubes, each priced at $3.
This one had been corrected to say “Yellow Ochre” when I bought it. I tested out the paint, and it does look more like yellow ochre than raw sienna. Is this manufacturing error common? And is the corrected labeling right?
October 29, 2016 at 2:26 am#1259475
JulesFerrule
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Your swatch looks more like raw sienna, to me. Raw Sienna is more transparent than Yellow ochre. Does your tube have the pigment numbers on them? Generally, yellow ochre is made from PY 42 or PY 43, while raw sienna is traditionally made from PBr7. There are exceptions, of course.
[FONT=Garamond]“Creativity takes courage.” [FONT=Garamond]
― Henri MatisseOctober 29, 2016 at 6:38 am#1259462
painterbear Moderator Oakwood, Ohio
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I think it is probably yellow ochre, it doesn’t have the warm tone of raw sienna.
Jules has a good tip, look for the pigment numbers on the side of the tube, as he pointed out, they differ and that should be the answer:
Yellow ochre: PY 42 or PY 43
Raw Sienna: PBr7Sylvia
October 29, 2016 at 7:29 am#1259480
MarialenaS
The Holbein Raw Sienna is made with PY43 pigment exactly as the Van Gogh one is.
http://www.dickblick.com/items/00322-8062/#colorpigments
There are manufacturers that don’t use the authentic PBr7 pigment for their earth colours but I don’t know why they use alternative pigments because PBr7 are easy to find pigments and very cheap.
For example W&N and Cotmans Raw and Burnt Sienna are made with PR101.
Anyway.. if you want your Siennas to be made with the original PBr7 pigment check at BlockX, Daniel Smith, Maimeri and Shin Han. These are some brands that I know for sure that they use the original PBr7 at their Siennas and Umbers.October 29, 2016 at 1:55 pm#1259490
KeeverMacLeod
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I prefer the mars colors. Most of the natural offerings are a bit opaque or outright bland.
October 29, 2016 at 4:58 pm#1259501
SouthButte
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Because of camera and computer screen variations, I wouldn’t even venture a guess. Your best bet is to compare a swatch to a known sample of each. Also, bear in mind that Holbein’s idea of yellow ochre may be somewhat different than, say, Daniel Smith’s.
Regardless, it is whatever you define it to be. After all, what’s in a name?
South Butte
Watercolor: Organized chaos as a random plan
October 29, 2016 at 7:36 pm#1259461
hblenkle
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Most important is if you like the color and like it alone and in mixes in the paintings.
October 31, 2016 at 5:25 am#1259468
alansam
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these comments . take me back to my boyhood days ,when I worked in Haigh hall ,Wigan
the walls were painted in what was called distemper ,the ceilings were picked out in gold leaf ,the rooms very old thick flock papers , watercolours were not used much we used what we called FLATTIN ( an oil paint ),and we used four inch brushes to apply it ,ceilings were painted in whitening powder and water,,at the time,I used to go to an old shop in Wigan that sold powdered ochre, umbers and other colours ,also in large drums were paste of the same colours,,,driers ,liquid Terabin ,white and red lead ,scrumbles ,,and leadless paste ,to make white undercoat. . my first job was , toting heavy drums of paste Leyland Walpamur and we had the choice, of apple green ,,peach ,cream . magnolia, it came semi solid .and I had a trowel in a bucket of water ready to scoop it out ,..,then one day , a product call acrylic came on the market,,what a change it made ,,life was so much easier ,and rollers .they were fantastic,,and a great gloss paint called Leylac,, can you wonder why, I try and judge my earth colours from these past memories,,Holbien colours seem far away from them
,maybe Japanese are nearer to the old earth colours.I see in my mind . . I don’t know,, personally I don’t care for them .. sorry for an old mans musings ,at least I am not on about what I did in the boar war and how I won all me medals ,,hee hee:lol:October 31, 2016 at 9:40 am#1259463
CharM Moderator Watercolour Forum
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Welcome to the Forum janlinpaints! Good on you for your frugal purchase! What you’ve discovered is that “paint names” don’t necessarily represent the pigment in your tubes.
It’s important for you to consider three things when buying your paints: 1) Paint Name; 2) Pigment Number; 3) Manufacturer.
Holbein’s paint name of Raw Sienna is made from the Pigment Number PY43. This is atypical because Raw Sienna is generally considered an earth yellow manufactured from PBr7, the same pigment that Burnt Sienna, Burnt Umber and Raw Umber are also made. Winsor & Newton ignored this and offer their burnt sienna made from PR101. Their paint name doesn’t necessarily represent the traditional pigment. This red iron oxide is the same pigment used in Venetian Red, Caput Mortuum, etc.
When buying certain Paint Names such as sap green, hookers green, indigo, etc., you’ll find that every manufacturer has a different formula for them. Another good example is Permanent Alizarin which is made from a variety of pigments depending on the manufacturer.
Don’t be discouraged by all this… but do learn your pigments!
Char --
CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci
October 31, 2016 at 11:18 am#1259491
KeeverMacLeod
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It’s worth mentioning that earth colors are more and more being manufactured from synthetic iron oxides because deposits with the qualities desirable to certain manufacturers’ preferences are growing slim. Hence, W&N switched its Burnt Sienna to PR101 and its Raw Sienna to PY42+PR101. It’s no big thing, the synthetics are cleaner and stronger is all. Besides, there’s a good chance that earth color you love that’s labeled PBr7 or PY43 might actually be PY42 or PR101.
I’m not terribly familiar with Holbein’s paints, but it’s not out of the question for it to be PY43. Based on its appearance, I’d wager it’s PY42 transparent yellow iron oxide.
October 31, 2016 at 12:45 pm#1259467
indraneel
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manufacturers labeling them wrong, knowingly? Of course it can happen, of course it must be happening….. but does anybody know for sure?
OTOH, I’m extremely happy with my iron oxides…
October 31, 2016 at 1:14 pm#1259469
briantmeyer
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It’s actually fraud to label or misrepresent something like that knowingly.
Probably more like they change pigments, and think it’s cheaper to keep using the old labels, which isn’t a big issue to me as long as they don’t do it to deceive, and update their website. ( QoR French Ultramarine for example was mislabled as pure PB29 when it was a hue, they quickly retracted the issue and offered to replace all the tubes, it was just a mistake and that is how companies should handle it )
I don’t think the manufacturers really care that much as long as it looks the same, nor do many of their customers. If they are doing this intentionally, I want them charged by the FTC for deception (false advertising), and for those involved to all be forced to get a new job which isn’t related to art supplies, not to mention serious fines. The FTC and other regulators around the world do take this sort of thing seriously.
I remember though one forger being outed since he used “modern” pigments, so it can be very important ( lol, not just for forgers but for a lot of reasons where a specific pigment is required, some artists pride themselves on using traditional pigments, it’s part of how they sell their art, so finding out that they have been using synthetics could affect the prices as their works would no longer be what they said they were. A lot of people enjoy the story of how I am using Lapis Lazuli, Amethyst, etc, which are just primatek paints, but it sounds neat that it’s genuine stuff, I would be quite angry to find out that Daniel Smith is lying. )
Despite it just being paint, this is actually a serious white collar crime, and further when your customers distrust your company, that indicates your company has serious issues.
Brian T Meyer
My Site - Instagram[/url] - FacebookUseful links: Watercolor FAQs - Watercolor Handbook - Handprint - Listing of Watercolor Societies - Watercolor Guide (Pigment Listing)
October 31, 2016 at 1:18 pm#1259492
KeeverMacLeod
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manufacturers labeling them wrong, knowingly? Of course it can happen, of course it must be happening….. but does anybody know for sure?
OTOH, I’m extremely happy with my iron oxides…
The color’s chemically identical, so they’re not really labeling anything wrong. From what I’ve read, companies have been adding synthetic pigments to the earths in partial or whole amounts for years.
It’s actually fraud to label or misrepresent something like that knowingly.
Probably more like they change pigments, and think it’s cheaper to keep using the old labels, which isn’t a big issue to me as long as they don’t do it to deceive, and update their website. ( QoR French Ultramarine for example was mislabled as pure PB29 when it was a hue, they quickly retracted the issue and offered to replace all the tubes, it was just a mistake and that is how companies should handle it )
I don’t think the manufacturers really care that much as long as it looks the same, nor do many of their customers. If they are doing this intentionally, I want them charged by the FTC for deception (false advertising), and for those involved to all be forced to get a new job which isn’t related to art supplies, not to mention serious fines. The FTC and other regulators around the world do take this sort of thing seriously.
I remember though one forger being outed since he used “modern” pigments, so it can be very important ( lol, not just for forgers but for a lot of reasons where a specific pigment is required, some artists pride themselves on using traditional pigments, it’s part of how they sell their art, so finding out that they have been using synthetics could affect the prices as their works would no longer be what they said they were. A lot of people enjoy the story of how I am using Lapis Lazuli, Amethyst, etc, which are just primatek paints, but it sounds neat that it’s genuine stuff, I would be quite angry to find out that Daniel Smith is lying. )
Despite it just being paint, this is actually a serious white collar crime, and further when your customers distrust your company, that indicates your company has serious issues.
I’m not sure if this is a serious post.
November 2, 2016 at 12:13 am#1259500
AgtJen24
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Well you said you got them from a vintage store and they were lightly used… what if someone had refilled the tube with Yellow Ochre and that’s why it’s crossed out and relabelled with a pen?
November 2, 2016 at 5:27 am#1259502
Dom Nguyen
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It’s raw sienna. Raw sienna is more transparent so undiluted paint straight out of tube looks darker just like in your photo. Yellow Ochre is opaque so its undiluted vs diluted paint should look more or less the same. I have both so I’m pretty sure the original label is correct.
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